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September 21, 2005

A world made by markets

The following is an excerpt from Chapter 2 of "Beyond Right and Left: New Politics and the Culture War" (Allen & Unwin, Sydney, 2005).

We live in a world made by markets. The last 20 years has seen the triumph of a broad doctrine which goes by many names -- economic rationalism, neo-liberalism, neo-classical economics, supply-side economics -- which argues that all kinds of economic and social issues can be successfully dealt with by a combination of individualism, competition and free markets. At the same time, an older style of conservatism and social liberalism have waned and along with socialism in both its radical and reformist modes.

These changes and the end of the Cold War in 1989-91 have ushered in the era of the New Capitalism: more global, more efficient and more dynamic. The Old Capitalism of the post-war industrial world operated in a regulated economy relying for its profitability on industries based on food processing, white goods, cars and steel making. The New Capitalism is a deregulated economy increasingly relying on services and knowledge. It commercializes all aspects of culture and leisure. The New Capitalism deepens the commodification of things once done within the family economy: preparing meals, caring for children and caring for the elderly. Activities, once performed by government, have been commercialized or privatised in recent years: education, electricity generation, telecommunications, water and health. All of this economic activity is backed by sophisticated industries of marketing and advertising. Everything is a product and everyone is a customer.

New Capitalism is a libertarian capitalism and libertarianism has attractive elements. It is more open and flexible . Workers are more mobile and skilled workers, especially those with skills in demand have more autonomy in their working life and good material rewards. For most people daily life is less constrained by social conformism. Enjoyment is not constantly shadowed by moralistic guilt. Sexuality and sexual preference are hidden in the shadows and the expectations of women (and men) are less rigid.

Indeed the libertarian new capitalism has embraced the libertarian cultural revolution of the 1970s. Diverse lifestyles have been converted into market niches for an endless array of new consumer products. Above all, for many, material living standards are higher than at an time in history.

Under this dispensation a curious paradox has emerged. The threat of communism has collapsed and Western economies pour out a cornucopia of material goods, yet there is an uneasiness about all of this. There has been a popular revival of critiques of hyper consumption and hyper individualism. There is a yearning for ‘moral values’. A move back to religious belief – often fundamentalist -- has been observed, both in the wealthy West and in the less developed world.

The gap between the super rich and the poorest is growing. A larger middle class is growing. In a previous era the struggle over this unequal distribution of wealth was the underlying dynamic of politics in countries like Australia. Today resentment over the unequal distribution of wealth has lost its bite. But unease and resentment about something else is growing. It’s hard to put your finger on but it is about the way we live, the quality of our lives. It has something to do with that overused and slippery term, ‘stress’. It is about being unable to spend as much time with your children as you’d like. It’s insecurity about your job. It’s about the growth of social problems like gambling, drug abuse and mental illness. It’s a loss of trust in common institutions (and not just parliament). For ‘old Australians’ it is an unease over multiculturalism and an uncertainty over national identity.

It’s also about the penetration of commercial values into all parts of our lives. As we enter the 21st century our world is not only faster, busier and more stressful it is also suffused with the language and values of business.

It once seemed common sense that public goods such as water, telephone services, electricity, road building and so on would be organised with the public good uppermost in mind. Privatisation, marketisation, competition and deregulation have become the new common sense – and bring with them a new set of values. Universities were once institutions whose rationale was in the knowledge they produced and passed on. Today universities jealously guard their ‘brand’ in the competitive market for fee-paying overseas and local students.

The market revolution

Humanity did not always live in such excessively market-driven economies. In pre-market agrarian societies life was regulated by custom and not markets, every action by an individual was moralised, invested with a sense of right and wrong which was determined by whatever religious or spiritual beliefs prevailed. Money was not the sole measure of value. Every action was measured against the weight of tradition, and every action occurred within a web of obligation towards family and tribe. Such societies were stable and slow paced. Lest we romanticise them, they were (and are) societies of material scarcity and sometimes people starved to death. Obligation was enforced by ostracism or violence. They were deeply conservative -- marriages are arranged and women obey men sometimes on pain of death.

The point of the comparison, as I said, is not to romanticize these societies, but to say this: our modern day instincts and minds were shaped by a million years of hunter-gather society then by agriculture-based societies for the last 10,000 years. Our human nature evolved in conditions which are utterly different from modern society. We always had the capacity for individual aspiration and self-interest but this was held in check by low material level which forced communal lifestyles for most of human history. Today as the material wealth of society soars to new heights, these instincts are less restrained. As well, a growing gap is emerging between these instincts and the more communal human instincts.

The market grew out of occasional exchanges on the periphery of human communities. In the earliest times, salt was traded over long distances, in later ones fruit, vegetables, animals and were bought and sold on a cycle of ‘market days’. Today the market is the central totem of our society, active around the clock, producing commodities, demanding our time and defining our lives. In this kind of society social relations are under constant pressure of being reduced to their commercial and instrumental purpose.

Once a robust sphere of non-commercial life existed alongside the world of the market. Today this non-commercial sphere, from the level of public institutions down to family life is shrinking and is itself being commodified, its elements being produced or packaged and sold on commercial terms. Old fashioned notions like the public good blur and the quality of life changes in so many ways. We live rushed lives, jamming work, fast food and leisure into the constricted space of our lives. One response is the popular radical movement in Italy today called the ‘slow food movement’ which stands for a different way of living, not just of eating.

This is the era of the New Capitalism whose outlines first emerged during the long boom which ended in the mid-1970s. Its flourishing only fully emerged after the impact of the Thatcher and Reagan eras made themselves clear. It is a turbo-capitalism, a lean and mean capitalism, a capitalism with no competitors.

Family values and the New Capitalism

The effect of the new commercial values is most keenly felt when it affects our most intimate places, our immediate circle, our family and close friends.

Families, friendships and other non-market bonds are a problem for economic liberalism and the commercial culture which it promotes. Relations between families, friends and similar communities tend not to be motivated by self-interest but by care for others and altruism. Parents raise their children because they love them, not for reward. They may receive a reward, such as the reciprocal love of their child but it is not because of this calculation that they spend time and money and less tangible things in caring. Nor is this solely because children are uniquely vulnerable. Among adults, friends help each other without a thought of monetary reward.

And this happens in communities as well. While writing this book I happened to visit the war memorial in the town of Goulburn in southern New South Wales. I was struck by an inscription honouring the dead soldiers. It read: ‘Service Before Self’. The society which chose these noble but quaint words might as well have been from antiquity rather than one within living memory. An ethic of service still exists in communities but more than ever today it works against the grain.

Care for others, altruism, non-market relations – such feelings, such motives and the actions which flow from them do not make sense for most economic theorists. They do not easily fit the model of rational, self-interested behaviour. The place where they flourish most of all is in families. One person who has done much to pinpoint the contradiction between market values and family values is the feminist economist, Nancy Folbre in her book The Invisible Heart. This American academic chose the title of her book as a play on words of the best remembered phrase in Adam Smith’s 1776 book, The Wealth of Nations. Smith saw the ‘invisible hand’ of the market – composed of a multitude of self-interested actions – resulting in a common good. Smith, often credited as the intellectual founder of neo-liberalism (it’s actually more complicated than that) pointed to the beneficial role of self-interest in the economy. In another memorable phrase he argues that ‘it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest.’

But Folbre points out that even though Smith was speaking figuratively his example is very misleading. The sale of meat by the butcher does not actually provide us with dinner at all. He provides the meat for dinner but the preparation of dinner (like many similar acts) is usually done by a wife or mother who does not act out of self interest. In fact, a vast, parallel political economy based on the ‘invisible heart’ continually lubricates and reproduces society.

The invisible hand represents the forces of supply and demand in competitive markets. The invisible heart represents family values of love, obligation and reciprocity. The invisible hand is about acheivement. The invisible heart is about care for others. The hand and heart are interdependent but they are also in conflict. The only way to balance them successfully is to find fair ways of rewarding those who care for other people. This is not a problem that economists – or business people – have taken seriously. They have generally assumed that God, nature, the family and ‘Super Mom’ – or some combination thereof – would automatically provide whatever care was needed.

Nancy Folbre points out that the book which launched Adam Smith’s career was not The Wealth of Nations but The Theory of Moral Sentiments. In it Smith showed he was perfectly aware of the existence of the kind of altruistic labour which Folbre writes. He assumed that some kind of strong moral and altruistic underpinning of society would continue indefinitely and not be fundamentally damaged by the operation of competition and markets. But the spreading and entrenchment of markets, and especially of the values they promote, is doing just that.

Since the days of Adam Smith the functions of the family have progressively been whittled away by the rise of industrial capitalism. From the introduction of widespread wage labour, the manufacture of food and clothing, to the provision of education and health, the family has been reducing continually. Not that this has been a uniformly bad thing. The traditional family depended almost totally on the unstinting and unpaid work of wives and mothers whose choices about their own desires and needs depended on the goodwill of their husbands. The market and the process of commodification, as we shall see later, are by no means entirely bad things. Folbre argues that capitalism weakened the family in some ways that were good in other ways that were bad. Wage employment was important for women giving them some alternatives to immediate marriage and motherhood. Some degree of financial independence became possible. ‘Most of us agree that the growth of individualism expanded personal freedom in some very healthy ways.‘

In the era of neo-liberalism these tendencies have rapidly intensified and are now having an opposite effect from expanding freedom. Today the final remaining functions of the family are being squeezed as the care of young children and the provision of food are increasingly provided by the market and the pressures of work constrict the time of parents. But the question is not just how much further we can go in this commodification. The question is whether we are already experiencing the costs of the crushing of our most intimate groupings and the devaluing of care.

Markets and the environment

One of the best known areas on which market values clash with other values is the environment. This is obvious in basic ways, such as the desires of property developers and construction companies to tear down heritage buildings or for logging or mining companies to despoil the natural environment. But this is a microcosm of what is happening globally.

Markets can harness self interest to produce massive economic growth. In the past century world economic output has increased twentyfold. This has brought enormous benefits in standards of living but it has been purchased at enormous cost to the environment and to our future. Between one third to a half of the world’s forests are gone and about half the mangroves and other wetlands. About three quarters of marine fisheries are over-fished. There is a crisis in the loss of biodiversity, with large numbers of species of birds, mammals reptiles and fish facing extinction or already extinct. The use of oil and coal plus deforestation has increased the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The result is human-made climate change, with the melting of icecaps, erratic storms and desertification. The scale of it all and its implications are too difficult to contemplate for most people.

In her speech to the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the AAAS president, ecologist Jane Lubchenco said:

The conclusions … are inescapable: during the last few decades, humans have emerged as a new force of nature. We are modifying physical, chemical, and biological systems in new ways, at faster rates and over large spatial scales than ever recorded on Earth. Humans have unwittingly embarked on a grand experiment with out planet. The outcome of this experiment is unknown, but has profound implications for all life on Earth.

Another analysis of the global ecological crisis is aimed at the increasingly obvious glaring holes in neo-liberal theory. The economist and environmentalist David Korten argues that one of the key weaknesses of free market economics is that corporations can ‘externalize’ their costs. That is, they mostly don’t have to pay for, or face the consequences of the true cost of their operations. It is basic to market theory that the producer must bear all the costs of production and that these be included in the selling price of a commodity. In fact, corporations constantly try to externalize their costs. They try to ‘free ride’:

‘Externalized costs don’t go away – they are simply ignored by those who benefit from making the decisions that result in others incurring the costs. For example when a forest products corporations obtains rights to clear-cut Forest Service land at giveaway prices and leaves behind a devastated habitat, the company reaps the immediate profit and the society bears the long term costs. When logging companies are contracted by the Mitsubishi Corporation to cut the forests of the Penan tribespeople of Sarawak, the corporation bears no cost for devastating native culture and ways of life.’

Globalization and human values

The area of commercialisation and marketisation which has caused some of the greatest political controversies is not on the home turf of advanced industrial countries but concerns the less developed world. The social and moral crisis which is implicit in advanced countries is explicit in the under-developed world. In the latter the crises exacerbated by the global neo-liberal economy, can be a matter of life and death. For example, it can mean the denial of life-saving drugs to the dying due to intellectual property rules tightened at the insistence of pharmaceutical companies; it can mean the stripping of jungle mountains and plains of their natural cover by logging companies; it can mean the dumping of toxic waste from mining in rivers which are the life blood of local communities.

Or it can mean something less dramatic such as the refusal by wealthy ‘free trade’ nations to open their borders to the agricultural products of poorer nations. As a result, they pay $300 billion annually in farm subsidies which distort trade and lower world prices to the detriment of poor countries. About 25,000 American cotton farmers, for example, are paid US$1.5 billion annually as subsidies while they control 40% of global cotton exports.

The main moral defence of neo-liberal globalization is that it is necessary to assist people in less developed countries to gain some of those benefits of a higher living standard – clean water, affordable food, shelter, a health and education system. It is telling then that one of the most powerful rebuttals of this comes not from a radical in the anti-globalization movement but from the Nobel prize winner for economics, Joseph Stiglitz.

Explaining why he wrote his book Globalization and its Discontents, Stiglitz said his views on globalization were changed by serving in the World Bank where ‘I saw first hand the devastating effect that globalization can have on developing countries and especially the poor within those countries.’ Stiglitz argues that globalization has the potential to enrich the poor but must be ‘radically rethought’. What made Stiglitz critical of his own generation of neo-liberal economists is that he had a broader notion of human values which made him skeptical of ideologically-driven policy.

Posted by David at September 21, 2005 06:01 AM

Comments

Can I suggest that the notion of “A World Made by Markets” is not quite correct because it reflects the reification of markets rather than the recognition that markets are processes that happen when people exchange goods and services? More comments can be found in a post on Catallaxy
http://badanalysis.com/catallaxy/?p=1159 (linked from the signature).

An effective critique of neo-liberalism needs to look at the whole agenda and not just isolated bits of it. There are at least three major components - free trade, rule of law and a moral framework. If these are not taken on board then statements like the following will occur.
"Families, friendships and other non-market bonds are a problem for economic liberalism and the commercial culture which it promotes…Care for others, altruism, non-market relations - such feelings, such motives and the actions which flow from them do not make sense for most economic theorists."

I would have thought that economic theorists have much the same human sentiments of altruism etc as everyone else.

Posted by: Rafe at September 22, 2005 06:47 AM

"I would have thought that economic theorists have much the same human sentiments of altruism etc as everyone else."

They probably do - it's just that their theories can't comprehend them.

Posted by: Mark at September 22, 2005 03:04 PM

Mark, theories of economics are designed to explain economic phenomena,they are not supposed to comprehend human sentiments,whatever that means. They do make simplifying assumptions about human motivation but there is no way to avoid that and it does not necessarily invalidate an economic analysis (which would never claim to be the whole story).

Posted by: Rafe at September 22, 2005 03:13 PM

I firmly believe there are areas where economic theories don't belong, simply because these theories do not have the ability to explain human intricacy.

As a young person who is active in the hip hop scene, I am constantly witnessing the intrusion of commercial interests into my subculture. And this intrusion upsets a lot of people.

They feel that their music is being exploited for the sole purpose of making money. Music is often like a form of spirituality for young people, in terms of how much emotion and importance they attach to it. It feels like violation to have something so personal whored out by someone who has no concern for the impact on those whose emotions are buried deep in this form of expression. All for the sake of money.

It's nothing new to have commercial interests using subcultures as 'cool tools', as markers to alert consumers that their products are cool (and might even make you so if you buy them). It's nothing new, but it is still very sad to witness in a subculture which is so dear to me, and to so many others.

It has been proven to us by witnessing this happen to other underground movements that when commercial interests realise they can make money off something which is essentially very intimate, the very thing they are using to confer cool and sell stuff is crippled by its use.

Reading your book has helped crystallise a lot of free floating thought that has been pestering me for some time now. Congratulations. I'm now able to share my understanding and ideas with others in my sphere, and on the whole they have been quite receptive. Just goes to show the ideas you have raised have many applications, and have the potential to reach and revitalise audiences you didn't know you had!

Thanks David, for this enlightening book.

Posted by: Ilse at September 23, 2005 03:55 AM

Economists are often more ambitious than Rafe suggests. Gary Becker and Richard Posner, for example, aren't content to restrict economic analysis to market behaviour.

In his book The Economic Approach to Human Behavior Gary Becker argues that "The economic approach is clearly not restricted to material goods and wants, or even to the market sector." For Becker everything has a price -- sometimes the price is money, sometimes it's time, other times it might be something like reputation. Whether it's choosing a sexual partner, having children, or going to church, any deliberate behaviour can be explained using the economic approach.

The decision to have children is a good example of Becker's approach. He writes: "For most parents, children are a source of psychic income or satisfaction, and, in the economist's terminology, children would be considered a consumption good." When parents spend money sending their children to school, giving them music lessons, and straightening their teeth Becker sees this as the result of preference for "higher quality children."

Margaret Jane Radin, a professor of law at Stanford University, argues that this approach constitutes a worldview --'universal commodification'. According to this worldview anything that people value is a commodity. And "Anything that some people are willing to sell and that others are willing to buy can and should in principle be the subject of free market exchange."

Philosopher Elizabeth Anderson argues that this way of thinking can have damaging consequences if it extends to institutions such as the law. For example, if sex was just another commodity then what does that make rape? In her book Value in Ethics and Economics she writes "If the state took up this same perspective and recognized women's sexuality as just another kind of property, no social space would be left to affirm women's experience of rape as a worse crime, a deeper violation of the self, than robbery."

As Ilse says in her comment "there are areas where economic theories don't belong". It seems to me that some spheres of life ought to be understood through other conceptual frameworks and be governed by different norms.

Posted by: Don at September 23, 2005 01:38 PM

The following was posted to my blog http://pharoz.blogspot.com:

I'd just like to write up some notes relating to neo-liberalism, and how to help build an alternative that is not so bleak - and that actually has a place for humans in it.
In the third chapter of the book there is a summary of Hayek's economic ideas.

P67 -The market works because it acts as a feedback network where goods and services are not only exchanged, but also information is generated about what works and what doesn't - markets are adaptive and successful distribution patterns are learnt. There is no way that a centrally planned network could generate this kind of information, or work as efficiently - and I agree.

But let me now introduce an idea from the physical sciences: scalar variables as opposed to vector variables. Energy is a scalar - it has a magnitude only - like money. Momentum is a vector - it has a magnitude and a direction. A vector could be used to indicate a change the in state of a system.

Neo-liberal economics seems to view the world in only a one-dimensional kind of way - as if there were only scalars to be concerned about. A 'free-market' might be the right way to conceptualise one-dimensional economic systems - where money is the only exchangeable value, and everything can be reduced to a monetary measure.

But for more complex systems there is already a well established market-kind of mechanism - and perhaps this could be called civil society - where ideas are publicly examined and debated, and people work collectively to solve perceived problems.

I studied bush regeneration at TAFE, and have participated with a few landcare and dunecare groups over the years. Complex problems such as fixing degraded bushland needs an array of conditions to make a significant, and lasting, impact. You need people who are trained, you need a plan, you need to organise times to work, equipment and so on - over many years. Simply throwing money at problems like these will not work. There are many, many social and environmental problems that can only really be addressed by engaging people through ideas - not just a unitary measure such as money.

The neo-liberal perspective is one-eyed, and half-blind. Civil society is also a feedback network of sorts, similar in a way to markets - but incredibly more complex and more adaptable. Civil society also needs some energy to keep functioning - but the functions that civil society performs can not in any way be adequately meet by a substituted market. The 'free-market' and the monetary measure is important - but not the whole story.

Posted by: Robert at September 24, 2005 02:44 PM

Robert wrote: "My aim is to point out that there may be part of being human that is irreduceable to economics. While you say that neo-liberals include civil society in their scheme of things, my point is that civil society is a manifestation of something that can not be captured by a neo-liberal 'free-market'".

Robert, you keep missing the point. It is not part of the neo-liberal agenda to reduce the totality of human experience to economics. Where do you get that silly misconception? The neo-liberal scheme of things, as I have spelled it out, includes (at least) the rule of law and the domain of morals.

Posted by: Rafe at October 3, 2005 05:47 PM

Max Weber drew our attention to the fact that the system we created to serve our needs may become an end it its self. The more we favour instrumental values over nominal values the more we create a meinginless iron cage. A modern market system is altering our ordered value system.
As our social environment is unpredictable as opposed to our physical environment so we order it on a sytem of values so we can learn from it.

Conservaties and the left look for reasons for this disorder in our values and run into blind allies. Our morals and values are attacked by the right. Ironically they liberate our market system only to make the situation worse. The paradox is if we do not change the way we manufacture goods we will be left behind by the world to stagnate. It is world competion that is driveing the change to our value system. To day we are faced with the dilemma ofthe market becoming an end in itself instead of a means to our ends.

Posted by: john Probert at November 8, 2005 12:38 PM

Rafe, It is mens ideas that rule their behaviour. These ideas dring about the laws and morals to support those ideas

Posted by: john probert at November 9, 2005 08:38 AM

Hi All,

I realise I'm a bit late to the party for this one but I'd still like to toss my five cents into the mix.

I would have to disagree with David on one point. I would argue that the New Economy is 're-regulated' rather than 'deregulated'. The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission is a clear example of how governments are forced to 'regulate' in order to make firms 'behave' in accordance with orthodox economic firms (ie price-taking, competitive, profit-maximising economic agents).

For all Marx's failinsg his analysis of the tendency towards the concentration and centralisation of capital is a far better description of the way corporate capitalism actually functions today than the neoclassical fantasy.

Rafe, I'm not sure sure how you see 'economic phenomena' as existing independently of 'human sentiments' (or should we use your term 'moral framework'). Economics is not a positivist science with a set of immutable laws of motion. It is a body of knowledge grounded in a set of intellectual/moral assumptions.

These 'simplifying assumptions', as you put it, are very 'simplifying' indeed. Perfect competition, perfect information, perfect consumer rationality and the aforementioned price-taking, profit-maximising firms are so 'simplifying' they terminally impair the capacity of orthodox economics to explain the economy in which we actually live (as opposed to economic models which exercise the minds of so many academic economists). At the heart of this 'simplified' construction is a simple principle, euphemistically called 'utility' but here named as 'greed'.

In orthodox economics 'utility' motivates 'consumers' to allocate their preferences among competing goods and services transmitting signals to passive firms via the price mechanism and ensuring an efficient allocation of resources. If the government gets out of the way (apart from guaranteeing private property and enforcing contract law of course) then the magical, mystical world of the 'free market' will work its wonders and we can all arrive at the nirvana of 'general equilibrium'. This idea is every bit as utopian, and therefore idiotic, as Marx's 'classless society'. The 'free market' has never existed, does not exist, and will never exist. Not a good track record for a theory that purports to explain the world.

Now Rafe you might eschew the fundamentalist silliness of perfect markets but that is the fundamental idea underpinning neoclassical economics (and it's bastard child, neoliberalism).

There is also a moral judgement inherent to orthodox economics. Namely, that the outcome is not only 'efficient' but 'fair'. The distribution of economic resources the follow from 'free markets' is necessarily fair because all factors of production exchange according to their relative marginal productivities. However, human beings (or labour) are not widgets or pork bellies and they cannot and should not be treated as just any other commodity. The present government's ridiculous mantra that 'flexible' (read increased polarisation in wages outcomes and an expansion of low-wage employment) will necessarily spur labour productivity and boost employment is nonsense. Productivity increases are driven overwhelmingly by technological innovation and an increase in the division of labour not by a redistribution of income in favour of corporations (capital). The best way to boost productivity, if this is a desired outcome, is to invest in innovation (both public and private investment) and probably to expand immigration.

Rafe, I noticed on your own blog about this chapter that you also had the temerity to compare the devastation wrought on the natural environment by mining companies with a couple of greenies tearing down a few signs. For a man who likes to position himself as a voice of considered reason this was a pretty cheap shot.

Also, your comments on market strategies for conservation are misguided. It is true that market mechanisms (such as carbon trading schemes) can make a very important contribution to curbing our greenhouse emissions but the crux of the issue is that it will take international agreements and strong government action to 'introduce' this 'market solution'. The fundamental point vis-a-vis orthodox economics (and Marxist and Keynesian analysis for that matter) is that a concern for the ecological integrity of our planet is an afterthought. In the static, ahistorical world of orthodox economics natural resources are simply taken as given. They are either inexhaustible or endlessly substitutable. Neither of which is true. If the 'free market' reigned supreme we'd have a global ecosystem comprising radiata pines!

Okay, I've got more to say but this will have to do for now. Might get some more debate going.

Finally, I'd just like to thank David for writing such a perceptive and inspiring book. It's a book the openly recognises the intellectual crisis on the progressive side of politics and goes on to sketch a way out of the malaise.

Posted by: Troy at December 2, 2005 04:23 PM

Troy

There was a time when people thought that horse manure was going to drowed London. Aso there would not have been enough land to grow oates for the horses.
They were wrong at that time. It is very easy to jump onto the dooms day wagon

As David as said in his book as long as the people who produce the externalities dont put them into the cost of the product then we are ging to have unfetted pollution.

It is about time we used some lateral thinking about the subject instad of getting around like Henry Penny

Posted by: john probert at December 7, 2005 04:03 PM

Troy.

What ever you call a modern economic system it has delivered the material goods to us like no other economic system has ever done and with out us being in fetters.

The first industrial revolution did not come about by command it was caused by inovating entrepreneures like Wilkinson,Bolton,Watt or the Darbies of Coalbrookdale,Wedgewood, Court and Hargreaves ect.
Thess men were ovecoming bottle necks or demmanding a better quality product
or sevice. They may have not been there for our benifit but we gained by their labours.Each man doing his own thing benifited the whole in the long run.
May be thats what is wrong with Aus. at the moment. We need a few more innovatting entrepreneures to compete on the world markets.

Keynes and Freedman are dead as to how the ecomomy works in the long run. And we are all dead in the long run

Posted by: john probert at December 7, 2005 04:32 PM